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(Editor’s note: Kevin Smith didn’t edit himself in talking to us, so neither did we edit him, preferring to represent Smith as he actually speaks. You’ve been warned: profanity ahead.)
Kevin Smith has come full circle. Twenty-two years after breaking out with the Sundance sensation Clerks, an outsider movie heralding the DIY world of content creation, Smith has returned to his roots by bringing Fat Man on Batman to his own YouTube Channel from Defy Media.
In talking with Smith, it was clear that he’s recaptured his youth, and found a way to begin again.
“I love my career, but in a fucked-up way, that first movie wasn’t meant to be the beginning of something. It was supposed to be a calling card to show people we can make a movie so please next time, can you pay for it? Thankfully it turned into this wondrous ride, but I always feel it took me off my path,” said Smith. “Right away, I was taught they’ll pay for your art. So don’t make any art unless you’re getting paid for it. That’s not the guy who made Clerks. My path was low-budget. The best stuff we ever did came from no money and a need. If you’re waiting to get paid, you’ll miss a lot of opportunities to be creative.”
A turning point came when Smith’s long-time editor and friend Scott Mosher introduced him to the fledgling podcast medium.
“This is what I’ve been waiting for. I use to drive past the radio tower in my hometown, and think maybe one day I’ll be rich enough to buy my own radio station. Then I could broadcast any time I want,” said Smith. “Thanks to the internet, thanks to podcasts, thanks to YouTube and whatnot, you can just have it in your own house.”
You’d think Smith would be lenient on himself for being late to the YouTube party given his busy schedule. Nope.
“That always bugs me. YouTube should’ve appealed to me the most because I came from the place of dream it, do it. Nobody’s going to hand it to you, so go out and make it,” said Smith. “I honestly felt like, what the fuck were you doing? I watched myself on YouTube. I could’ve been providing my own fucking clips. I was asleep at the wheel.”
But given the ever-increasing demand for content, Smith believes he’s coming in at the right time.
“It used to be, you’re good for 2-5 minutes, then the viewer checks out. Now I can do an hour-long show, and they’ll sit there and watch it. People won’t be like you’re doing it wrong. That’s the heartbreaking part when you express yourself or make something and somebody’s there to be like, you’re doing it wrong,” said Smith. “There’s no such thing as doing it wrong. Especially in the Wild West medium that is the digital frontier. I fell in love with the idea of having a YouTube show at the exact time somebody like me fit in.”
Smith is quick to point out he’s much older than his new co-workers.
“I look like the kid that got left back a few years. I’m 45; you think I’m going to think of something fucking new? No. The only way I’m going to learn new things is by hanging out with youth. When you’re in digital media, you’re hanging out with youngsters,” said Smith. “I’m coming to that world with open arms: teach me how to be you. Most of these people are like we do this because you did Clerks. Don’t you get it? We see an idiot like you make a movie and all of a sudden he’s in the movie business.”
Now it’s the other way around. Smith was inspired to start his own YouTube show by the series Good Mythical Morning.
“They were my heroes. These guys cracked the fucking code. All they do is make the show they want to make,” said Smith. “Then I realized that’s what you used to be, dick. When you made Clerks, you were that guy. Then you’re paid to make art and that changes everything.”
In February, many of Smith’s podcasts will celebrate their 10th anniversary. They were borne out of a frustration with the tortuously long (and lawyer-filled) process of TV and movie-making.
“I understand there’s a lot of money involved. But I don’t care about money. I don’t mind living hand to mouth as long as I can do something I love and not grind it out at a job,” said Smith. “Jesus, that’s why I got involved in the arts in the first place. I didn’t want to be my father working at a post office.”
He wanted to be a creator, a notion reinforced when Smith discovered his 20-year plan in a notebook from 1993.
“I dreamed, wouldn’t it be great if people like me could have a film co-op, where you just go in and get a camera? If you feel like telling a story, you could,” said Smith. “Everybody should be able to do this. I was the furthest thing from that world as I could get. I didn’t know anybody there. I was a complete outsider. I dreamed of a place where anybody could be like, hey it’s the me show.”
Sound familiar?
“I love traditional media. Television was my third parent, and it’s probably the one I love best,” said Smith. “Digital offers me far more entertainment options. They use to call it untraditional, but this shit is fast becoming the traditional, son.”
It’s also perfect for Smith’s tireless creativity.
“I get up and do an episode, and it’s up that day. The turnaround is much quicker,” he said. “I’m not a profound creator, but I am prolific.”
It’s a breath of fresh air from Hollywood.
“For years, I’ve been trying to make TV shows. I got lucky, I got Comic Book Men, and I got another one on AMC coming soon called Geek It Out, but how am I going to do something that’s exactly what I want to do, like ‘Fat Man on Batman’ with Marc Bernardin, where all we do is talk about stuff we love?” asked Smith. “Why wait for some network? We’re doing a version with Geek It Out, but this is more niche.”
And right now, niche is what sells.
“Niche is king right now. It used to be hit the widest possible audience. Now it’s all about a small audience of hardcore followers. All you need to do is focus on them,” said Smith. “They tell you with a 1,000 supporters you can quit your day job and be whatever you want.”
Exhilarated by the medium’s limitless possibilities, Smith plans expansion.
“We do Fat Man on Batman three times a week, but my dream is to do it daily.”
After two failed pilots adapting Smith and Ralph Garman’s “Hollywood Babble-On” podcast, he sees YouTube as its logical destination. His channel may also be the ideal landing spot for the next installment of An Evening with Kevin Smith.
“They all get broken up and put up online anyways. Most people want me to stay away from movies, they’d much prefer I’d talk about them,” said Smith. “Why not shoot the special and put it on the channel? Instead of finding a traditional outlet and then sooner or later wind up on YouTube, do what makes sense. As long as we’re pulling in hits, and as long as Defy is into building this channel, that’s kind of a smarter move.”
Indeed, Smith believes YouTube might have been a better path for his True North horror trilogy (that includes Tusk and the upcoming Yoga Hosers).
“I make these weird fucking movies now, and what a pain in the dick it is to get people to come out and see them,” said Smith. “I’m not making enjoyable movies now, I’m making these real masturbatory rubber Canadian monster movies, which I love, but people aren’t really into. If I had planned this shit out 3-4 years ago when I started making these movies, I’d make them even cheaper, and shoot them right on YouTube and build a channel with them.”
Now, Smith has rewired his brain to benefit his channel, drawing on the fact that he’s still pretty involved in Hollywood. He directed a season-two episode of The CW’s The Flash and scored a (very) bit part in Star Wars: The Force Awakens. (Another fun Easter egg for Star Wars and James Bond fans: Daniel Craig played the stormtrooper that Rey manipulates with her newly-realized powers of the Force.)
“Everything I do has to feed my digital work. We launched our YouTube channel quickly because my voice was in Star Wars: The Force Awakens, so I could talk about that knowledgeably on the show. The Flash happened. That’s content for the show. Now that’s how I think about life. What am I doing and how will it benefit or enhance the YouTube show?”
Defy Media is making it all happen.
“These Defy cats, they give you wings. I know that sounds very Bette Midler and shit, but they’ve allowed me to do what I’ve wanted since I was a kid, which is to create whatever you want. You know who did that? Prince,” said Smith. “I’m not thin and sexy and I can’t play a chord of music, and I couldn’t make anybody have sex with me if I sang to them to save my life, but this is an artist, who all he wanted to do was prolifically create. He had a lot of shit to say before he left this world and he just wanted to get up every day and do it.”
“Defy allows me to do that. Defy allows me to create at such a prolific level to just do what I want. That’s why I like these guys so much right now. That’s why I want to stay at the company, because just like Harvey and Bob running Miramax back in the day, I got patrons who are like, go ahead, sing your song. It’s rare when somebody in life wants to help you express yourself.”
Smith knows it’s still a business, but it’s a lot more freeing than the business he’s used to.
“Digital is like that amazing godmother who bought beer for you and took you to the pier with your friends and took you to R-rated movies,” said Smith. “Nothing but joy and very few restrictions. There’s a business aspect, but for me, not really.”
Smith had a version of his dream come true in 1994. Now he’s getting a second chance at following his true path.
“There’s a Daoist proverb that says to be great is to go on, to go on is to go far, and to go far is to return. I think sooner or later, the journey brings you back to where it began. If you can recognize it and are open to receiving it, you get to reset and start the journey all over again, but with the experience you’ve had taking your first journey.”
“Digital content is where my heart is. It’s much closer to that dream I had, driving past the radio station,” said Smith. “Every artist has to replenish. Periodically you have to go back to the place where it began: where two roads diverge in the yellow road. If you’re lucky, you get to go back and take the other fucking trail and see what happens. Who wouldn’t want to be involved in that? Anybody can do it. It’s not just them, whoever they are. For the first time in history, that’s a big collective us. Now we can all get through. The gates are down. What are you waiting for? Dive in.”
Kevin Smith certainly has, relishing his new path, perhaps inspiring a new generation to conquer the next frontier of content creation.
For more Kevin Smith, register for PromaxBDA: The Conference on June 14-16 in New York, where Smith and Defy Media’s Andy Signore will chat during a keynote session.
[Cube image courtesy of Tubefiller]
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